エニアグラム研究アーカイブ 3-2 リソ&ハドソンインタビュー 後半


Russ: So this is of course true in Japan, too. But there is another layer to this, which is a more sensitive topic. I don’t know if you want to include this, but I am talking about the traumas of Japan’s wartime experiences. I feel that when you have a group of people who've been through some collective trauma, it has an influence on their ability to approach the process of Inner Work. I've been very interested recently in how these traumas are passed trans-generationally. I've been reading studies that have been done on the children or even grandchildren of the survivors of the Holocaust in Germany, and seeing how they show signs of that trauma even though they did not experience it directly. So I think that the trauma of the war and related issues still affect this culture, like a subconscious layer.

ラス:もちろん、これは日本の場合にも同じように当てはまります。ただし、この問題にはもう一つ別の層があり、それはより微妙なテーマになります。そのことについてここでお話すべきなのかどうかわかりませんが、それは、日本の戦争体験からくるトラウマ(心的外傷) についてなのです。ある種の集合的トラウマを体験してきた人たちがいると、それは、人々がインナー・ワークのプロセスに取り組む際の能力に影響を与えるように思えます。わたしは最近、こういったトラウマがいかに世代を超えて伝わっていくかということに大変興味を持っています。そして、ドイツのホロコーストを生き延びた人々の子供やさらに孫の世代までをも対象にした研究結果をまとめた本を読んでいるのですが、直接ホロコーストを体験していない世代にまでトラウマのあらわれがあるのがわかります。ですから、戦争やそれに関連した問題からくるトラウマは、潜在意識層のように、今なお目本に影響を及ぼしているのではないかと思うのです。

There's a lot of unresolved pain here. There are a lot of feelings of shame. And as an outsider, I see a lot of rejection of very valuable things in Japanese culture. I see beautiful, wonderful, rich spiritual and artistic traditions in this culture that could very much feed spiritual growth here. But I also think that many Japanese people subconsciously reject these spiritual traditions because they feel that "our traditions let us down. Our spiritual traditions led to a very terrible, painful place." So on some level, I think that that modern Japanese is kind of throwing a baby out of with the bath water. Some of the older institutions probably were flawed or harmful, but not all of them. Anyway, I think this has caused many people here to have aversions to anything other than modern, economic matters. When we are working on ourselves, we run into our individual issues, but also these larger cultural issues.


Don: Yes. Japanese society’s complex relationship to authority is one of the big barriers to the growth of the Enneagram here. It would be a huge mistake for any group that teaches the Enneagram to erect itself as "the authority" on the Enneagram. That’s precisely the problem in Japan?it is the belief in authority that creates deeper problems if and when the authority lets people down. It creates the tendency to become cynical, bitter, disappointed, and…


Interviewer: To feel betrayed?


Don: Yes. To feel betrayed. Exactly. But the fundamental issue is the belief in authority, and the tendency to look to the authority to save us.


Interviewer: I'd like to ask you both about your Enneagram background. I understand that your work originated in Ichazo's ideas, but that you also brought your experience with Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. What do you think about the works of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky? Also, what do you think about the work by other researchers in the field, such as Maurice Nicoll?


Don: Well, we both have a background in the Gurdjieff Work; in fact we're the only major teachers who have ever actually been in the Gurdjieff Work.


Russ: Some of the other Enneagram teachers talk about the Gurdjieff Work, but we were the only ones who were actually in it. We are in a direct lineage from Gurdjieff himself. One of my teachers was Mme de Salzmann who was Gurdjieff's personal assistant from 1902 to his death in1947 when she took over The Gurdjieff Foundation worldwide. He asked two women to take over The Work when he was dying and they were Mme de Hartmann and Mme de Salzmann. Mme de Hartmann was the teacher of our more immediate teacher who I will not name to protect his confidentiality.



I actually knew Mme de Salzmann and worked under her direction in a large group. Basically, though, most of our understanding and writing has come more from our experience of The Work and less from the books, as rich as the books are. I was launched in my journey toward the Enneagram by reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous many years ago. It’s a wonderful book. The Fourth Way ideas taught by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky were critical in my own personal journey. But I believe that our understanding of the Enneagram has more to do with our direct experience of being in the Work, and less with a theoretical framework of it. There are many ideas from the Gurdjieff Work that I find very powerful, but it was in the Diamond Heart Work of A. H. Almass (that we've been doing for the last seven years) that we have found a way to connect the Enneagram with these other systems of thought and experience.


Don: Yes, the central idea that Gurdjieff had was that "man is asleep." Gurdjieff relentlessly tried to demonstrate the truth of this to people?to shake them out of their complacency so that they can awaken to who they really are. The notion of the personality as a mechanism that puts us to sleep and keeps us asleep to our True Nature had a major influence on us,
particularly in our deepening understanding of the Levels of Development and what they really are all about. Another influential Gurdjieffian idea was seeing the Enneagram as a process model, as a symbol that can be used to understand many different phenomena. We do not see the types as static categories, but as fluid and dynamic, and the Enneagram as a whole as a flow, a dance, as a movement or energy...


Russ: We learned the Enneagram in the Gurdjieff Work, through the sacred dances. We were also influenced in the Gurdjieff Work by its emphasis on group "work." We literally did physically work after which we would come back to our group and report to our teacher about what our experiences were. He would comment on them and interpret them. Our instruction came from the experience of struggling to be present while we were doing "work tasks." We would observe ourselves and come back to our group and talk about our experience. In our workshops and Training, we also do a great deal of teaching to our students after they have done an exercise based on one of the Enneagram types or on themes we find in the Enneagram as a whole.


Don: We do experiential work with a lot of personal instruction, and less theoretical material than some might expect. Even though our books are intellectually rigorous, and we try to be clear and precise in our teaching, the most important thing is not to be "academic" but to transmit the living reality of what the Enneagram is all about. We have trusted our own experience and the guidance we are continually getting in both our teaching and our writing. Even when I was writing the first edition of Personality Types, I did not use many of the Gurdjieff-based books or even Nicoll's books. I referred to them now and then to see what they said about a particular point, but I always came back to my own experience and to what I observed of people around me.


Russ: Yes, the Gurdjieff and Nicoll books are not in the foreground, although we have developed certain idea such as the Centers which have also been used by Ichazo, just as he developed the idea of the three Instincts (self-preservation, sexual, and social) which are also Gurdjieffian ideas.


But as with the Enneagram, you have to understand that not all Gurdjieff groups are the same. There are a lot of pseudo-Gurdjieff groups around now that have not grown out of the kind of living tradition of the Work that Gurdjieff taught. They base themselves more on the theoretical frameworks of the books, particularly Ouspensky's or Nicoll's books. They can be useful, but they aren't necessarily tapping into the core of Gurdjieff's teaching that was very much more of a gutsy, Type Eight approach. In the Gurdjieff Work you are given challenges, difficult things to do, and you see what happens inside you. You don't just sit back and have an intellectual discussion. In fact, in the Gurdjieff Work, being intellectual about the Work is frowned upon.


Don: In the Gurdjieff Work, we had very few lectures or intellectual discussions. What we'd get is work tasks. "Go into that field and dig a ditch. Try to stay present and see what comes up."


Russ: "And then cover it back up after you dug it."


Don: And then see all your personality reactions about getting dirty, getting sweaty, wondering what the task was for, and so forth. That’s what we talked about. So many people sit around and talk about Gurdjieff and Ouspensky in a very abstract, intellectual way, but that's not the real approach to it.


Russ: Even the theories about the Enneagram as presented in a lot of books are quite distinct from...how should I say...the privately transmitted teachings about the Enneagram in the living Gurdjieff Work. (By the way, they have nothing to do with panels or types!) For instance, I know that some more orthodox Gurdjieffians did not give a lot of credence to J.G. Bennett's work on the Enneagram. Bennett’s work on the Enneagram as a process model is not really seen as a part of Gurdjieff’s teachings. They have even stronger negative reactions to the work of Rodney Collins. Rodney Collins wrote a book called Theory of Celestial Influences that became popular in certain Enneagram groups. But the people who actually worked with Gurdjieff see it as a strange aberration, and they have also felt that way about Ichazo's Enneagram of personality, so there you go! (laughs)


Recently, some of the more traditional Gurdjieffians have been giving the Enneagram of types a chance. Of course, there are some hard-liners who still say, "Oh, you know, this stuff isn't the pure Gurdjieff Work; we don't want to get involved with it." But others who are more open-minded say, "Isn’t this new Enneagram material about working on ourselves, to show us how we blindly follow old programs?" They see the Enneagram as a very useful support to Inner Work, which, of course, it is.


The main thing to remember is that there are lots of mistaken ideas floating around the Enneagram. A lot of people seem to be under the mistaken idea that Ichazo's Enneagram of types developed directly from Gurdjieff, but, in fact, the idea of the nine types was not a part of the Gurdjieff Work. This was really Ichazo's contribution.


Don: Yes, Gurdjieff was responsible for bringing the symbol to the West, and secondly, Gurdjieff was not responsible for introducing any so-called "Sufi teachings" of the Enneagram. The teachings about the nine personality types did not originate in any kind of Sufi teachings. The modern Enneagram was a synthesis first made by Ichazo, and later developed by Claudio Naranjo, and beginning in 1975, full time by me. Many people still think that the descriptions in our books of the types and many of the teachings (such as the Harmonics, the Hornevians, the Levels of Development, and so forth) came either from Ichazo or the Sufis or some other ancient origin. But this is not at all the case. Next to Ichazo and Naranjo, we have done more to develop the modern Enneagram into its present form than anyone else now writing and teaching today.


Russ: If you look carefully at Gurdjieff's teachings, it’s clear that he certainly was influenced by the Sufis. But his primary framework comes from Greek philosophy?from the Stoics and Neo-Platonists. The Enneagram is a much more Western, pre-Islamic view of things that he reconstructed. Gurdjieff himself was a Christian, and his motivating question was "How is it possible to be a Christian? No one actually lives according to the teachings of Jesus. In fact, very few people are actually able to follow the teachings of Buddha. How do you do it?" His conviction was that there was an ancient method for human transformation that had been lost. If he could rediscover it and introduce it to the modern world, it would be possible to transform human consciousness and make the true understanding of Christianity really possible.

ラスグルジェフの教えを注意深く見ていけば、彼がスーフィーの影響を受けていたことは明らかです。しかし、基本的枠組みは、ストア派から新プラトン主義に至るギリシア哲学の流れに由来しています。ですから、エニアグラムははるかに西洋的で、イスラム以前の物の見方をもったもので、彼はそれらを再構築したのです。グルジェフ自身はキリスト教徒でした。そして彼を突き動かしていた疑問は、「人はいかにしてキリスト教徒となる得るか? 実際には誰もキリストの教えに従って生きている人などいないではないか。仏陀の教えに従って生きている人など極めて稀ではないか。いったいいかにすれば、そうした生き方が可能となるのだろうか?」ということでした。彼は次のような確信を持っていました。人間の変容に関わる古代のメソッドがあったが、失われてしまった。それを再発見し、現代の世界に紹介することができれば、人間の意識の変容は可能であり、キリスト教への真の理解をもたらすことが実際に可能になる、と。

Interviewer: You've always been developing new ideas and concepts such as the nine Levels of Development. What is your most recent interest? Also, how do you come up with such innovative, new ideas?


Don: How do we keep developing it? (laughing) We keep developing the Enneagram by first realizing that we don't have all the answers and that the full implications of the system have not been worked out yet. I have heard some Enneagram teachers say that all of the descriptions of the personality types have been worked out and that the descriptions by different authors are more or less the same. This is a huge mistake and is very misleading. We have to remember that the Enneagram is about the depths of human nature, which is really an inexhaustible thing, as we said at the beginning of this interview. The Enneagram is only an intellectual construct that we use to talk about something much vaster, the human spirit. So there's always something more to discover.


We are also always reading and listening to what's going on in many intellectual and cultural areas around the world. My conviction is that, whatever is real and whatever is true, is connected. I mean the truth is one and reality is one. And if you discover something true about human nature in anthropology or physics, for example, then it's going to impact your understanding of the Enneagram. The point is that reality keeps inexhaustibly revealing itself, and so we don't have to go around and try to generate new ideas: the mysteries keep unveiling themselves. As we continue to do our own Inner Work and we learn to listen to the voice of wisdom (that is available to everyone all of the time), our minds quiet down and new insights simply occur to us.

 また、わたしたちはつねに、世界の多くの知的・文化的領域で起きていることについて、読んだり聞いたりということを欠かしません。何であれ、リアルなことや真実であることはつながっていると、わたしは信じています。つまり真実は一つであり、リアリティも一つであるということです。例えば人類学や物理学の領域で、もし、人間についての何らかの真実が発見されたならば、それはわれわれのエニアグラム理解に影響を及ぼすでしょう。大事なことは、リアリティは自らを無尽蔵に開示し続けているということです。それゆえ、わたしたちはあちこち出かけて、新しいアイデアを生み出そうとする必要はないのです。神秘はたえず明らかになっているのです。われわれがインナー・ワークを続け、知恵の声を聴こうとする(それはいつでも、誰にでもできることです)と、われわれの心(mind) は落ち着きを取り戻し、新しい洞察が自然に生まれます。

Russ: I think the reason they do is that we keep on working on ourselves. Don and I continue to be a part of the Diamond Heart Work that has a rich understanding of the human spirit. We are part of an on-going group in which we can work with realized, subtle teachers. We don't think that anyone can teach without having that kind of support. Of course, the process helps deepen our own understanding, and as Don said, there's no end to this. In the same way, The Work doesn't have an end. I think we've both successfully given up the concept that at some point you get enlightenment, and then the Inner Work is over, as if there were some sort of "finish line."


Don: (Laughing) Well, I’m still waiting! But also, because we're a team, Russ and I share and test what we discover with each other. We question each other’s ideas rigorously?even mercilessly. No new idea gets by us unless it not only makes sense but is also useful. For example, there are a number of insights that we have had that we have never taught or published because they are mainly theoretical?and they won’t help people in their day-to-day lives. But if we find a new idea that truly illuminates some aspect of human nature and Inner Work, and we feel that it also is of practical value to people, we start teaching it and eventually we write it down. This is how much of The Wisdom of the Enneagram was written. It just kept evolving as we were discovering new things.


Russ: As for what are our new interests, for me, there are three areas I have been working on. I've been very interested in the three Instincts and in seeing more clearly how important they are. I am developing a clearer articulation of the differences between them and how they play out in the nine types. I think a lot of people are interested in them in the States but some of the teachers have major distortions regarding them and this has led to a lot of misunderstandings.

ラス:最近わたしたちが関心をもっていることについてですが、わたしの場合は、このところ3 つの分野に取り組んでいます。わたしは3つの「本能」に非常に興味をもっており、その重要性をもっと明確に掴みたい、と思っているところです。わたしはこれらの3つの本能の違いとそれらが9つのタイプにおいてどのような現れ方をするか、より明確な説明に取り組んでいるところです。アメリカでは、この3つの本能について興味を持っている人はたくさんいるのですが、一部の指導者が、本能についての見方をひどくゆがめてしまったために、大きな誤解を生み出しているように見受けられます。

Another interesting development is our work on the Harmonic Groups and how important they are for relationships. Last, but not least, I find myself coming back to a deeper and more precise understanding of the role of three Centers. I am continuing to work on seeing how they come together to support our capacity to be present, and how the different qualities of Essence are experienced through them.


Don: Another area that is new for us is business applications. It's worth giving time to this because I am interested in finding ways to communicate the Enneagram more simply to more people. I think this is important to keep the Enneagram from becoming an elitist thing. If the Enneagram is going to help people live more consciously and to change society, it's got to get out to millions of people. So popularizing the Enneagram, while also maintaining its inner spirit, is important and an interesting challenge. It may also be that, ironically, the Enneagram may become better known though the business world rather than through the human potential movement which has had the Enneagram for 30 years. The self-help movement has not seemed to know what to do with it and many people have muddled up the Enneagram and made it superficial. Wouldn’t it be surprising if the Enneagram did the most good by being popularized through the business community? The intelligence and the practical needs of this audience may do more to make the Enneagram stretch itself to its full potential than any other audience. We’ll see!


Interviewer: Thank you very much for taking time with us. All of us from Enneagram Associates sincerely hope that you enjoyed this interview as much as we did.

エニアグラムアソシエイツ エニアグラム研究第2号
このインタビューはエニアグラムアソシエイツ発行の「エニアグラム研究」第2号に掲載されたものです。リソ&ハドソン両氏のエニアグラム研究所の HP には英語版のみが掲載されています。

リソ&ハドソンインタビュー 前半 エニアグラム研究アーカイブ3-1